[X] My Assistant

I think having an option to reduce the proxy bid amount would be nice.
At least up to the current maximum bid assuming you are the current highest bidder.

Also maybe insert a comma delimiting every '000.

To reiterate and clarify, the problem at hand is the current mechanic for resolving clashing between a proxy's max bid and a standard forum post bid, especially where multiple proxy bids can be issued to intentially clash with the expected manual bid to circumvent the min. bid increment rule (proxy bid snipers).

@Superlatanium

"The minimum bid increment is there to keep players from intentionally bidding trivial amounts (accomplishing little but annoying other bidders on the item) - but given that proxy bidders are submitting a proxy bid that is already the minimum increment or (more likely) higher, and given that other bidders can immediately see if they've outbid a proxy bidder or not, I think it's not a restriction they need."

> The current mechanism does not facilitate this when I can just keep sniping with proxy bids hoping I'll get to out bid my opponents by 1k if they're manual bidders. It still annoys the bidders.

"Another justification for the proxy bidders having a tiny advantage is because they're submitting their bids earlier. In a similar vein, ordinary bidders who submit their bid before others' may have an advantage; there might exist a maxBid > currBid, but maxBid < nextMinimumBid(currBid), so despite someone else being willing to pay slightly more, the earlier bidder wins the item, for an ending price smaller than the other player's maximum bid. Manual bidders usually have the annoying habit of waiting until the last hour of the auction to snipe their desired item. Proxy bidders usually submit their bids well in advance. I like treating those who aren't sniping better than those who are sniping."

> I agree that they should have an advantage. However, I doubt giving advantages to proxy bid snipers is what is intended or encouraged.


>To clarify, my intention for writing
"Secondly, the current method of proxy bidding isn't exactly the most straightforward especially to newcomers (see the every expanding rules and requirement of bidkey). We should aim for system that is simple and straightforward"
is that those most likely to manual bid are newcomers, having them disadvantaged at the get go seems incorrect especially since we both agree that we should have a straightforward process (not one where you find out manual bidding gets 1k outbid by proxy bid snipers, then proceed to have go through the process of proxy bidding yourself). In this specific case, there is no need to give manual bidders a disadvantage.


@Sapo84

"It's punishing either way.
If I proxy bid 1M I shouldn't be sniped by a manual bid of 999k (at least I don't expect to, like someone bidding 999k does not expect to get outbid by 1M).
At the end of the day it's either you punish manual bid or proxy bid, you can't have the cake and eat it too."

For your information, there are different ways of implementing a proxy bid system where it isn't necessarily punishing.

It seems fair to me for proxy bidders to only have the auctioneers bid as their agents (ie bid as them), meaning the leapfrog way of bidding (ie where the min. bid increment is 3% and 2 competitors constantly bid in min. increments the competitors will be paying 6% higher than their last bid to outbid the other). In this scenario, the agent cannot bid higher than the proxy bid of 1m (next min. bid is 999 *1.03). This coincidentally was the way proxy bidding was implementing earlier and didn't seem to be punishing on either competitor.

It should be quite clear from the responses of some people in this thread of being surprised that they've been outbid by 1k that being outbid by 1k when they manual bid/proxy bid is punishment to them. Whereas in the case of the 1M proxy bidder, I do NOT think it is a punishment if their bid doesn't go through since they ARE subject to the min bid increments the rules " If you bid from [reasoningtheory.net] the website, you will automatically outbid any other bidders by the minimum bid, up to your limit"

"The expanding rules are there both for manual and proxy bidding so I don't really see the difference."

Side note: Not exactly, since as explained by Superlatanium, the min. bid increments are not always applicable to proxy bids.

"Bidkey is an annoyance and I can agree with that but so is bidding 10 times for little increments or get sniped because you had other things to do or you simply forgot (I got my current helmet by bidding at the cinema 2 minutes before the start of the film, and I didn't even know I got it until 2h later, literally a major pain in the ass).
And really, bidkey is just sending a pm to Super (and Super usually replies super-fast)."

To reiterate my clarification on what I posted Jul 27 2016, 16:39 (refer to the above response to Superlatanium), I am against disadvantaging newcomers. They should not be forced to realize that their manual bids are inferior to proxy bids, then have to move to a proxy bid (especially against proxy bid snipers).

I am in no way advocating the removal of proxy bids. What I want is to have a clear and transparaent system where manual bids and proxy bids are both viable. Sure advantages like bypassing the min bid increment can be given to proxy bidders who bid long in advance (emphasis). However, the same advantage should NOT be given to proxy bid snipers who are trying to abuse the system. Moreover, if this is to be implemented, it should ALWAYS be listed in the rules section. It should be quite clear that it would be unjust to have rules that are stated to be applied to all but actually only work to the detriment of some.

Apologies for the bad formatting and late reply, RL work is tiring.

This post has been edited by cirrux: Jul 30 2016, 11:13

-snip-

I'm not so sure all these points are really an issue. Proxy bidders do have an advantage over manual bids, but it is a VERY minor one. A single proxy bid can ignore the minimum bid increment ONE SINGLE time, that is when reaching the proxy bid limit. Before that limit is reached, minimum bid increments apply to proxy bidders the exact same way they do for manual bids.

As for 'proxy bid sniping', you are correct that is possible to submit a number of proxy bids of "minimum bid increment +1k" basically pushing all the burden of the increments towards manual bidders. However, Super was very clear that such behaviour, especially if it happens in extra time and multiple times in quick succesion, will only earn you a place on the wall of shame, forcing you to watch all future auctions from the sidelines.

especially where multiple proxy bids can be issued to intentially clash with the expected manual bid to circumvent the min. bid increment rule (proxy bid snipers).

You can do the same even if we apply your idea.
Instead of bidding normally manual bidders can bid expected proxy bid - 2.9%, thus preventing the seller from getting that nice 2.9%.

If we want to go the extra mile we can make something like:
- if there is a proxy bid that is more than 1.5% higher than the manual bid, the proxy bid wins
- if there is a proxy bid that is not more than 1.5% higher than the manual bid, the manual bid stays

I don't think that there are many ways to be fair to all the people involved.

This post has been edited by Sapo84: Jul 30 2016, 13:03

I'm not so sure all these points are really an issue. Proxy bidders do have an advantage over manual bids, but it is a VERY minor one. A single proxy bid can ignore the minimum bid increment ONE SINGLE time, that is when reaching the proxy bid limit. Before that limit is reached, minimum bid increments apply to proxy bidders the exact same way they do for manual bids.

As for 'proxy bid sniping', you are correct that is possible to submit a number of proxy bids of "minimum bid increment +1k" basically pushing all the burden of the increments towards manual bidders. However, Super was very clear that such behaviour, especially if it happens in extra time and multiple times in quick succesion, will only earn you a place on the wall of shame, forcing you to watch all future auctions from the sidelines.

I really isn't a large issue I just wanted to properly respond to each person. What I suggested is similar, even a 15min timeout between proxy bid updates will neutralize it.

If this system of auction is used, it'll probably last a very long time. That is why I am specific even on these small issues.

-----------------------------------
@Sapo84
I don't think that there are many ways to be fair to all the people involved.

> The reason it is fair is because everything in that idea is run in accordance with the rules stated in the 1st post. It is also in accordance with what the bidder inputs on the proxy bid screen since it says "Maximum", which means no more will be bid.

------------------------------------

In any case, this interaction should be highlighted in the rules, the chinese are alarmed by this "bug".

This post has been edited by cirrux: Jul 30 2016, 16:23

> The reason it is fair is because everything in that idea is run in accordance with the rules stated in the 1st post. It is also in accordance with what the bidder inputs on the proxy bid screen since it says "Maximum", which means no more will be bid.

Please argument how the situation I described is fair for:
1) The proxy bidder
2) The seller

Also let's leave the rules out of it because Super can just change the rules clearly stating that a previous proxy bid will always win unless a manual bid is higher.
Would that make bidding 81k knowing that the first manual bid will be 80k fair?
I don't think so.

Btw I like the timeout thing, I don't think it will be very useful but proxy bid should not be a way to get items for cheap.
For me it would be actually ok to prevent raising a proxy bid in the last hour/day/whatever.

P.S. @cirrux
If you click "+QUOTE" instead of "QUOTE" you can select the messages you will quote when you will click "POST REPLY", so that you don't have to manually copy-paste the other posts.

This post has been edited by Sapo84: Jul 30 2016, 16:26

Please argument how the situation I described is fair for:
1) The proxy bidder
2) The seller

Also let's leave the rules out of it because Super can just change the rules clearly stating that a previous proxy bid will always win unless a manual bid is higher.
Would that make bidding 81k knowing that the first manual bid will be 80k fair?
I don't think so.

To clarify the method I mentioned to be fair is this: " for proxy bidders to only have the auctioneers bid as their agents (ie bid as them), meaning the leapfrog way of bidding (ie where the min. bid increment is 3% and 2 competitors constantly bid in min. increments the competitors will be paying 6% higher than their last bid to outbid the other)."

In any case, a method is fair if people have the ability to know the outcome of their actions in accordance with the the rules (which is why super updating the rules is important).

It is unfortunate if the seller is unable to attain the highest possible price some can give, however, people have mentioned under the current system the effect is lowered already and isn't that large. And even if it was the previous 10% it would be fair to the seller since the buyer with the offer that is highest but he would not bid due to the min. bid increment being higher than his highest bid simply. Despite there being a higher possible bid that bid would be invalid and in effect is moot, the seller suffers no actual harm since the buyer wouldn't have bid anyway. Is it fair to what I stated above? Yes.

As for the other parties it is quite apparent according to what I stated above.

Thanks I never knew how the +Quote worked
--------------------------------------
Since Superlatium is essentially making a dutch auction, we might as well go all the way I think.

This post has been edited by cirrux: Jul 30 2016, 16:50

5% increment is the best option for me (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

I've made a couple changes.
(1) Proxy bids are now limited to 3 maximum per item.
(2) Proxy bidders no longer bid +1k over an ordinary bidder when the ordinary bidder bids the exact same amount as the proxy bidder's maximum. I think it's a bit less fair because the proxy bidder had shown intent to bid that amount earlier, but it's caused confusion for a few people. Either way, it's quite a rare situation, and the next minimum bid is always relatively small, so I'm not too against the change.

Note that nothing has changed with regards to proxy bidders bidding against each other; if A submits a maximum of X, and later, B submits a maximum of X, A will still have the winning final bid (of X), just like it's always worked.

By the way, cirrux - I do generally want to give proxy bidders the advantage when I can, because the more proxy bids there are, the less sniping there is, which makes things easier for everyone. Final bids can be settled much earlier, and not in the last 15 minutes of the auction, which is quite inconvenient for some, and should not be a strategy the system should incentivize people to rely on.

Nearly anyone who participates should be able to see pretty quickly that proxy bidding is quite clearly advantageous over normal bidding. If a newbie sees people proxy bidding automatically and wants to be able to do the same thing themselves, it's not hard at all to accomplish, as long as they're not too dumb to PM. Just like with pretty much everything else (games, work, systems), someone new needs to observe how a process works, read the rules, and figure out how to accomplish their goal effectively. It's OK if it's not something one will understand immediately.

For me it would be actually ok to prevent raising a proxy bid in the last hour/day/whatever.

I've thought about this before, and I would like it if it was something that could be done (for the same reason that candle auctions are good - it incentivizes people to bid their true value beforehand, without strategic bid timing having as much of an effect). But for this forum, I think it would be too difficult of a concept to effectively communicate to everyone, and unless everyone's on the same page about it I think the downsides would significantly outweigh the upsides.

1. How to cancel the PM/MM notification of an outbid item?

"code stopnotify" or "code stop notify", case insensitive. It was listed in rules in some earlier threads, but I dropped it from the standard text because no one used it (which, in retrospect, I should have been able to predict. if someone stops caring they'll just stop bidding in almost all cases).

2. Assumed that:

• Player A manually bids 50k on a non-Mat item X.
• A clicks the UPDATE button. The thread is updated successfully.
• Player B submits a proxy bid on X, where the max bid being 80k.
• B doesn't click the UPDATE button.
• B manually bids 80k on X.
• B clicks the UPDATE button. The thread is updated successfully.

Will the result be:
[Item_X] _Item_Name_ (seller: _Seller_) B 51k Proxy bid after #No.

The active high bid would be 80k ( == nextMinimumBid(50k)). A proxy bidder's initial bid (when they submit the bid amount) is subject to the minimum bid increment like everyone else; the website won't even let someone submit bids under the minimum increment (from the current active bid) (even if the website hasn't been updated to the most recent post bid on that item yet, a saved proxy bid of less than the minimum bid increment given the current bid on the item will also completely fail).

The only time a proxy bidder's bid can be less than the minimum bid increment is when:

Player B, proxy bidder in question, has submitted a proxy bid of the amount bMax
Player A (might be proxy bidder or standard bidder) bids or proxy bids aBid, such that [bMax >= aBid (if A is via proxy), or bMax > aBid (if A is via post)] and bMax < nextMinimumBid(aBid)

In this situation, since B has shown intent to bid a larger amount earlier, the system bids on their behalf for bMax, even though bMax < nextMinimumBid(aBid).

Also, in this situation, when A is via proxy, for clarity's sake, you might also (very rarely) see A's bid as under the minimum bid increment (although A's bid there is mostly just to show the interaction of the proxy bidders; of course A would never have the last winning bid). (The bid log is much more informative at showing bidders' interactions than the Post #1 of an auction thread)

This is the only sort of situation in which the next bid can be less than the minimum bid increment.

bump for everybody (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

This post has been edited by Doracra: Aug 28 2016, 04:06

Super, would it be possible for shields entries to also include the PABs?
SDE combination is much better than every other alternative and should be easy to identify.
(EDB and Prof for staff would be nice too since for some combination of prefix/suffix they are as important or more important than MDB)

Added comma delimiters when proxy bid is over 10m (now displayed as 10,000k+).

Super, would it be possible for shields entries to also include the PABs?
SDE combination is much better than every other alternative and should be easy to identify.
(EDB and Prof for staff would be nice too since for some combination of prefix/suffix they are as important or more important than MDB)

Shields done. Staff EDB done when the prefix matches the staff type. Maybe I'll get around to prof, but I think people don't care as much about it.

PM

I understand what you're saying

His mistake was a very simple typo:

[Shd05] 6.5 M

It is quite clear that he did completely intend to bid 6.5m, but did not get the format exactly right, and since both he and the other bidders on Shd05 waited until the very last minute to bid, he didn't realize the mistake in time. The problem was partly his not entirely understanding how the automatic auction parser works - which is very understandable.

As a show of good faith, I said I would fix the problem "if nobody objects", in post #273, because the time had technically already expired. But nobody objected; you did not say anything. If you had insisted that he should not have been given the exception, I would have removed his bid (and let you win the item). But you were silent during the auction, so it appeared to everyone that you didn't have an issue with it.

I think this might be an issue of English comprehension. I am sorry.

(because My Country time was PM 11:12, maybe I could go to bad directly.)

Yes, it is a problem when you have to stay awake (or get up early) in time for an auction. E-Hentai is international, so everyone wakes up and sleeps at different times.

But with my auction system, you do not have to be awake at the end if you have to sleep (or work) during that time. I tell everyone I can that they should use proxy bidding instead of manual bidding:

Automatic proxy bidding is highly recommended over bidding normally if you're seriously interested in something. If you bid from the website, you will automatically outbid any other bidders by the minimum bid, up to your limit.

强烈推荐使用 自动出价系统 ，尤其当你对某件拍品真的很感兴趣时，自动出价相比于平常的手动出价更具优势。如果你在这个网站上选择了自

动出价并设置了上限，系统检测到其他人出价高于你当前出价时，会在你设置的上限内，自动帮你用最小的加价来

压制对手的出价。（当然你还是可以在任何时候正常地手动出价）给我发PM来获取你的bidkey(自动出价密钥)。

あなたがどうしても欲しい商品があるとき, 自動代理入札は通常の入札よりも非常にお勧めです. 入札を このウェブサイトから行うと, あなたの限度額まで自動的に, 他の入札者よりも入札単位分だけ高く入札されるようになります. (もちろん通常の入札もいつでも行うことができます.) bidkey (入札キー) を取得するためには私に PM を送ってください.

어떤 물품을 정말 원하시엔 일반적으로 입찰하기 보다 Proxy Bid (본인이 입찰한 금액 + 두번째로 높았던 금액 같이 결제하는 방식)를 추천합니다. 사이트에서 입찰할시, 입찰가는 자동으로 다른 입찰자들이 본인이 입찰한 금액을 상회해 본인이 지불할 수 있는 최대금액보다 높아질 것입니다 (물론, 언제든지 일반적인 방식으로 입찰해도 상관 없습니다.) Bidkey를 받으려면 저에게 PM 해주시길 바랍니다.

For instance: Maybe you submit a proxy max bid of 5m at 12:30 UTC Saturday (9:30 PM in your country). Then you go to sleep. If someone bids 4m, the system will automatically bid 4m + 3% for you. If someone bids 4.5m, the system will automatically bid 4.5m + 3% for you. And so on, up to 5m. If the final bid is less than 5m, you win the item.

I agree that timezones should not be a disadvantage in an auction - it is unfair. That's why I spent many hours coding in proxy bids. You can submit a max bid (hidden to everyone else) whenever you want. If he had used it, or if you had used it, we would not have this problem.

If there's a technical issue I want to try to be understanding, but whenever there are problems, anyone should feel free to insist that we follow the rules exactly.

Hi There!

This item in Auction Preview:

[Lig05] Legendary Zircon Shade Helmet of the Arcanist (375, ADB 43%) ()


Just to clarify what you already know, That's mine sent to you for IW service.

Please remove from preview when you get around to it. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I kind of want to keep it. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Hi There!

This item in Auction Preview:

[Lig05] Legendary Zircon Shade Helmet of the Arcanist (375, ADB 43%) ()
Just to clarify what you already know, That's mine sent to you for IW service.

Please remove from preview when you get around to it. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I kind of want to keep it. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Going once.......going twice......SOLD!

Going once.......going twice......SOLD!

Ha! IW10 50k! Winnah!! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Hi There!

This item in Auction Preview:

[Lig05] Legendary Zircon Shade Helmet of the Arcanist (375, ADB 43%) ()
Just to clarify what you already know, That's mine sent to you for IW service.

Please remove from preview when you get around to it. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I kind of want to keep it. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Yeah, don't worry. The way the preview is generated, everything with an attachment in my MM inbox gets added to the list by default unless I go through them individually and remove some by hand (which I don't bother with until I'm about to post the thread).

Yeah, don't worry. The way the preview is generated, everything with an attachment in my MM inbox gets added to the list by default unless I go through them individually and remove some by hand (which I don't bother with until I'm about to post the thread).

Wow... That's really cool you can automate it like that. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

(Spoken with accent of 60's era U.S. hippy) -> "Duudddde... Like... you got it dowwwn man!"

There was a bug where, when the last post in the thread was an edited post (the auto-updater stops parsing when encountering it), proxy bids submitted right after don't get processed (or at least not until someone makes a more recent non-edited post in the auction thread). I fixed it so that the updater goes through the whole process each time, even on edited posts, so proxy bids never get "skipped" due to a faulty post in the thread.

bump for it to go to the front page for my previewing convenience