[X] My Assistant

I support the "naive" tag, but think it is missing half of what the original "clueless" suggestion was trying to capture...
So any chance "clueless" and "naive" could be discussed in different threads?
I'd make a separate thread for my following attempt to re-define "clueless", but this thread is already called "clueless", sooo...

A "clueless" tag would be able to co-exist with a "naive" tag because they are objectively different things and it should be impossible for the two to overlap because "naive" should never be forced, and "clueless" should always be forced.

To briefly state the differences...
"naive" is a contextual tag for when someone does not properly understand what sex is and cannot be forced to engage in sexual acts (according to more recent definitions)
"clueless" is a visual tag for non-consensual sex with someone that is not consciously aware enough to to give consent. This is visual because the "rape" and "mind control" tags are also visual... so if consent and loss of will is visual, lack of any kind of consent/will should also be visible.

Redefine of Clueless:

Suggested tag name: "clueless" or "unaware" or ""clueless sex" or "unaware sex"

Type: Activity / Visual

Description: Forced or non-consensual sexual acts with someone who is not consciously aware that they are physically engaging in sexual acts with somebody. A scene does not count if the unaware person becomes aware during a sexual act; becoming aware after is fine. Includes, but is not limited to, people who are in a state of unawareness because they are being affected by the following tags: sleeping, time stop, mind control, petrification.

Note: Should not be confused with rape.

Examples already in this thread:

From RedUnit10:
#1 http://ehentaihip.com/g/818825/98f766e621/ (First 30 pages) - Blindfolded
#3 http://ehentaihip.com/g/747636/b967dfeb97/ (First 8 pages) - Blindfolded
#5 http://ehentaihip.com/g/759379/1b304a7d86/ - Mind control

From zirpcev:
#7 http://ehentaihip.com/g/1306427/583a328a3a/ - thinks it is virtual reality
#8 http://ehentaihip.com/g/580164/1ea22a9cc0/ - Blindfolded, thinks it is from hypnosis porn

New examples:

#9 http://ehentaihip.com/g/1001226/3928b5e618/ - Taking advantage of time stopped people
#10 http://ehentaihip.com/g/1090593/b2244b5d08/ - Invisible person who's rape is unnoticed
#11 http://ehentaihip.com/g/1050551/0e06c690ea/ - Non-consensual sex with a very emotionless person
#12 http://ehentaihip.com/g/1227235/eb1a9df452/ - Sex with a mind controlled person who never resists
#13 http://ehentaihip.com/g/1240876/b33895ce53/ - Sex with a sleeping character who stays sleeping

Why this tag is needed: Apparently these are often mis-tagged as rape (right now examples 9-13 have a solid border rape tag and I know of others as well).
This is understandable because technically they are rape... but don't qualify for the rape tag because the unawareness leads characters to not be visually opposed to it.

Even though the current tags for unaware people (sleeping, time stop, petrification, mind control) imply that sexual actions will be had with the person, there is not always forced sex and the person does not always lose conscious awareness or will obtain conscious awareness halfway through by "waking up". The second sentence of my description prevents "rape" and "clueless" tags from overlapping for the same scene.
A "clueless" tag will allow knowing the presence of forced sex without mis-tagging rape and will allow filtering out galleries with clueless people. For example, if you think mind control is boring when the controlled person is not aware, do a search for mindcontrol$ -clueless$.

As the given examples show, there are also times when "clueless" occurs without any of those other tags. So even if the definition is changed to exclude it from being tagged with other certain tags this tag would still be useful.

This post has been edited by Flarpa: Apr 4 2019, 22:22

Interesting. I think you are on to something and yes, as we discuss it now, naive and clueless are two different tags, and I tentatively support both of them as separate entities.

But, first, the defining point of rape is non-consensual intercourse. Being unaware you are having sex, i.e. your definition of clueless, is still rape, just a specific variety of it. I don't think any of those galleries are mistagged as rape (https://ehwiki.org/wiki/rape).

I support your redefinition of clueless as a subtype of rape, through I will note it will be possibly redundant on some galleries where clueless-like behavior is already covered under an even more specific situation.

First, on sleep+rape (https://ehwiki.org/wiki/sleeping). We may want to exclude sleeping from definition of clueless, as sleeping is already a subcase of what you propose. Ie. sleep is a subgroup of clueless which is a subgroup or rape. Through one thing to note is that sleeping does not require rape, as it could be consensual. Still, if clueless is always rape, then by searching for sleeping + rape you get all such results, excluding presumably consensual sleeping sex

Another conflicting tag is mind control (https://ehwiki.org/wiki/mind_control) which currently states "against their own will" (which implies that the subject is aware and being raped, I think mind control needs redefinition of wording, but that's a separate issue). For the discussion here the point is that all instances of mind control may fit here, which also creates an unnecessary redundancy in tags. The benefit of clueless tag would be lost if it was cluttered with mind control (through of course this can be controlled by -mind control, I guess). That said, I am not a mind control fetishist, and if you can show me mind control stories where clueless would not apply, then I'd withdraw this criticism.

Time stop (https://ehwiki.org/wiki/time_stop) is another clearly redundant case. Of course all people whose time has stopped are clueless and so all time stop galleries would get this tag. Probably not necessary, again.

Invisibility (https://ehwiki.org/wiki/invisible)? Same issue.

Now, regarding specific examples

http://ehentaihip.com/g/818825/98f766e621/ - seems like naive, not clueless. She is not aware they are having sex, thinks it's just some training/medicine.

http://ehentaihip.com/g/747636/b967dfeb97/ - it is unclear whether she is aware of what sex is. Might be tagged as both clueless as naive.

http://ehentaihip.com/g/759379/1b304a7d86/ - mind control, per my comments above, probably not clueless

http://ehentaihip.com/g/747636/b967dfeb97/ - agreed, clueless, not naive

http://ehentaihip.com/g/580164/1ea22a9cc0/ - agreed

http://ehentaihip.com/g/1001226/3928b5e618/ - right, time stop, same issue of redundancy

http://ehentaihip.com/g/1050551/0e06c690ea/ - object, no indication this is forced or non-consensual, emotionless sex is something quite different

http://ehentaihip.com/g/1227235/eb1a9df452/ - object, emotionless sex + mind control, no need to add the clueless here

http://ehentaihip.com/g/1240876/b33895ce53/ - object per 'all sleeping galleries are clueless anyway'

But, first, the defining point of rape is non-consensual intercourse. Being unaware you are having sex, i.e. your definition of clueless, is still rape, just a specific variety of it. I don't think any of those galleries are mistagged as rape (https://ehwiki.org/wiki/rape).

I agree, but I got the idea that these were mistagged from this exchange in the general tag discussion thread:

I know I've seen sexual acts with "sleeping" characters get the "rape" tag even when the "sleeping" character never wakes up during the act and never even finds out that they have been raped, are these mis-tagged?

Yup.

The definition we are all tagging by begs to differ: Type: Activity / Visual. If [...] the opposing stage doesn't fulfil image presence the rape tag is incorrect.

So most of the examples I added are cases that are clearly rape and currently have the rape tag, but apparently do not have enough visual opposition to pass presence for the rape tag as I have now come to understand it. I am basically proposing that the rape tag for these should be completely replaced by a clueless tag where applicable. So in a lot of cases, no new tags would be added assuming that clueless could eventually replace rape for such galleries.

Still, if clueless is always rape, then by searching for sleeping + rape you get all such results, excluding presumably consensual sleeping sex

Right now sleeping$ is a mess and I think a clueless tag could help clean it up. Lots of galleries with sleeping have the sleeping person wake up mid-'rape' which allows for it to actually qualify for the rape tag. Then there are galleries like my example (#13) that are tagged as rape and the character does not wake up. But, there are also cases where there is non-consensual sex with a sleeping person who does not wake up and the galleries do not have the rape tag, probably because there is no "visual opposition". For example, here is one such gallery where the f:rape tag has actually been vetoed: http://ehentaihip.com/g/898109/38a40df3ae/ . The second sentence of my description attempts to make it so that galleries where the sleeping person wakes up would not qualify for the clueless tag unless there are separate scenes where the sleeping person does not wake up. So this vetoed gallery, and others where the sleeping person does not wake up should be able to qualify for "clueless" instead of rape. Then a search for sleeping$ -rape& -clueless$ should actually show results where the sleeping sex is consensual; sleeping$ + rape$ should show galleries where the sleeping person wakes up mid-way; and sleeping$ + clueless$ should show galleries where the person does not wake up mid-way.

the point is that all instances of mind control may fit here, which also creates an unnecessary redundancy in tags.

Similar to sleeping, due to the "does not count if they "become aware" during sex", this would only apply to mind control where they stay mind controlled which takes out a large chunk of mind control galleries because having the character regain awareness mid way is a common trope which also allows those galleries to visually qualify for rape. Another large chunk would be taken out because mind control where the character does not lose awareness at all and is more just "body control" or "releasing their inhibitions" are also quite common. So clueless would be able to replace rape for galleries like the example I gave (#12) and it would allow sorting out those large chunks and filter for only when mind-controlled character remain unaware. The main problem I see with mind-control + clueless is that the "loss of awareness" is often more contextual than visual... for example, if my example had internal speech bubbles showing that the girl was still aware but not in control, I would not consider it as "clueless" because then clearly she would in-fact have a clue... But like I mentioned in my first post, mind control is a visual tag, so apparently that kind of stuff (loss of will) is visible when dealing with mind_control.

Time stop (https://ehwiki.org/wiki/time_stop) is another clearly redundant case. Of course all people whose time has stopped are clueless and so all time stop galleries would get this tag. Probably not necessary, again.

Again, this would be to replace the rape tag for when there is timestop + rape but no "visual opposition" and to filter out the galleries where there is actual timestop + rape because the timestop is lifted mid-way, which again, is fairly common. There is also a common trend of timestop where the actions that happened during the timestop play out in real-time after it is lifted, I'd argue that there would not count as clueless since the person technically becomes aware during their perceived 'rape' as opposed to the cases like my example ([url=https] #9) where everything appears to hit them at once after the 'rape'. timestop is also used for "any time alterations done for [a sexual] reason" So it is not always sex with frozen people, sometimes it is only surrounding people that are frozen and other times it just means that some form of time travel or some other alteration is in play.

Invisibility (https://ehwiki.org/wiki/invisible)? Same issue.

Clueless would only be applicable in cases where someone's existence and physical presence is completely ignored like the example I gave (#10). And again, I think it should replace the rape tag there.

http://ehentaihip.com/g/818825/98f766e621/ - seems like naive, not clueless. She is not aware they are having sex, thinks it's just some training/medicine.

I'll agree that she is obviously naive to not realize what was going on, but since the sex was forced and she did not seem to have any clue that something sexual was happening I figured it would not qualify for naive, and because of those same reasons ("Forced or non-consensual sexual acts with someone who is not consciously aware that they are physically engaging in sexual acts with somebody") I figured it would count as clueless".

http://ehentaihip.com/g/747636/b967dfeb97/ - it is unclear whether she is aware of what sex is. Might be tagged as both clueless as naive.

I'm not sure if not knowing what a dick tastes like would be enough to count as naive, but I think sucking on a dick without realising you are doing something sexual is clueless.

http://ehentaihip.com/g/1050551/0e06c690ea/ - object, no indication this is forced or non-consensual, emotionless sex is something quite different

Yeah, I'll admit one is a bit of a stretch. Visually and contextually there is no sign of any kind of consent until the very last page which is basically just parroting anyway. I only found this one since it was currently tagged as rape, and again, since there is no visual opposition I'm considering it a mis-tag and think that because of the complete lack of apparent awareness and consent it could technically count as clueless to replace the rape tag, otherwise I guess it should have neither tag since plain emotionless really does seem to cover it.

This post has been edited by Flarpa: Apr 7 2019, 11:42

It is very important to search before starting a new topic! I was about to overlook this topic...

This tag has a very important meaning in the scenario.
A masturbation in which a young girl seeks a purer “pleasure” without knowing sexual stimulation,
Or a girl who has been raised isolated from sexual knowledge, or who simply believes that she has little knowledge of the meaning of male genitals or acts because she is young.
I haven't seen a lot of “ignorant men”, but I think there are some.

There are many people who like these situations, and I think there are many works that have picked up such situations.
And this tag can be expressed relatively simply, and I'm sure there are enough galleries that contain this tag.

Also, personally this tag should be more narrowly defined.
For example, it does not always apply during sleep, unconsciousness, and time outages.
A person is not ignorant if he / she can fully understand what is happening to him / her when he / she fully regains consciousness during the act.
In addition, if a woman who had sex during sleep can wake up after the other person has left after the act is over and notice that `` I was sexually interfered '', that person thinks `` Ignorance '' Does not apply.
Knowing what happened is different from knowing how it was done.

The ignorance I think is...

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Person who does not have knowledge about genitals and sexual acts.
This includes those who know that the male genitalia are called "penis(*)" but do not know that it has any meaning other than urination.
*...It can be another word with the same meaning

The ignorance I think is...

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Person who does not have knowledge about genitals and sexual acts.
This includes those who know that the male genitalia are called "penis(*)" but do not know that it has any meaning other than urination.
*...It can be another word with the same meaning

This doesn't really solve any of the problems we were having in this thread. It also makes things worse by not letting it work for the male namespace.

My, this is old.

Reviewing the thread the con/non-con idea looks too crazy now, their limits are too blurry. Besides, it's taking the tag into another direction. I rather have...

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Naivety
Type: Activity / Contextual
Description: The act of taking sexual advantage of someone's ignorance, innocence or a lack of knowledge either due to a proper sexual education or the character(s) age and/or background.
Note: The naive character has to be tricked, deceived or misinformed to engate into sexual acts.

Than 2 confusing tags.

This doesn't really solve any of the problems we were having in this thread.

To be honest, I couldn't clearly organize the issues discussed in this thread.
I am Japanese and try to understand most English exchanges using Google Translate.
However, it is difficult for me to have a deep discussion with Google Translate alone ...

I'm trying to post a new topic about the tag about "Ignorance" (無知), and I already have this topic and I feel that the rough definition of the initiator is close to what I thought, so here's my opinion I just posted.

It also makes things worse by not letting it work for the male namespace.

I don't think so.
A young boy knows to call it "おちんちん", "ちんこ", etc., but may not know it has any meaning other than urination.
I don't think such boys are inconsistent with my definition.

I hope this tag can move forward. I support SMiyano's def above, seems workable, through I am a bit unsure about

Note: The naive character has to be tricked, deceived or misinformed to engage into sexual acts.

One of my favorite stories in this genre is http://ehentaihip.com/g/819732/80a1ec539b/
but I am not sure if this note applies here

there are also stories of naive loli nymphos who don't know what's going on but they know they like it and they may initiate it

http://ehentaihip.com/g/1197604/9dae2b1240/



This post has been edited by Red_Piotrus: Aug 27 2019, 08:51

I don't think so.
A young boy knows to call it "おちんちん", "ちんこ", etc., but may not know it has any meaning other than urination.
I don't think such boys are inconsistent with my definition.

It was more so to do with how you phrased and approached it. As a result it wouldn't have worked as a definition.

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Naivety
Type: Activity / Contextual
Description: The act of taking sexual advantage of someone's ignorance, innocence or a lack of knowledge either due to a proper sexual education or the character(s) age and/or background.
Note: The naive character has to be tricked, deceived or misinformed to engate into sexual acts.

I support this definition.

What is a "proper sexual education"? Every definition is still too subjective.

I edited it to move the thread from the con/non-con (Which I'm strongly opposing atm) but it ended being not quite well defined.

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Naivety
Type: Activity / Contextual
Description: The act of taking sexual advantage of someone's ignorance, innocence or a lack of knowledge either due to a proper sexual education or the character(s) age and/or background.
Note: The naive character has to be tricked, deceived or misinformed to engate into sexual acts.

[The act of taking sexual advantage...]

The idea is to engage/involve someone else into sexual acts

[...of someone's ignorance, innocence or a lack of knowledge]

Using 1) their ignorance of what sex is; 2) their innocence (In the personification of purity scenario where it makes the character somewhat immune to sexual acknowledge, check [tvtropes.org] The Ingenue trope); or 3) a lack of knowledge or a misconception on what sex actually involves.

[...either due to a proper sexual education or the character(s) age and/or background]

A fault provoked by their -sexual- education, meaning the character(s) age reflects its innocence on ignoring what sex is or the education received informed them wrongly on what actually sex involves. Giving Red_Piotrus example, the character stupidity seems to make her immune on knowing what's going on or have any idea of sex (But she does know about groping and kissing). What I mean with character background should comprehend a character intelligence or lack of (A la [en.wikipedia.org] Aho Girl) or different written "reasons" that justify why the character does not know what sex actually is.

[Note: The naive character has to be tricked, deceived or misinformed to engage into sexual acts.]

Simply to narrow its scenarios (Making sex looks like a physical training or tricking the character into believe is some kind of massage), besides trying to separate the tag from sleeping and mind control mostly.

However, it does need improvement to become a more objective definition, as Joe stated. Or rephrase to cover more scenarios. And I have more doubts like should the character remain naive through the gallery/story or if she/he understand what they're doing is sex at some point the tag is disqualified? Gonna mull over....

This post has been edited by SMiyano: Aug 28 2019, 19:38

How about

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Description: The act of taking advantage of someone's ignorance or innocence or  for the purpose of sexual gratification.

I cut down unnecessary explanation that could end up confusing or too restrictive. I purposefully omitted the note since I am afraid it's too restrictive, per my examples few posts up that nobody commented on.

I removed "a lack of knowledge" since it's the same as ignorance.

Also changed sexual advantage to advantage for the purpose of sexual gratification because I think it sounds better :>

I'll try throwing out:

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Description: The act of taking advantage of someone's [sex related] ignorance or misknowledge for the purpose of engaging in sexual acts with them.

I think the note's "engage into sexual acts" is needed somewhere otherwise the tag is too vague/broad and could technically be used in any situation were a character's "ignornance" is taken advantage of in ways that may not have anything to do with actually having sex with them.

Also, if the ignorance does not specifically need to be related to sex it opens the door to more general "tricking" that involves non-sex related ignorance (such as making them think that they owe money, it's the end of the world, you're a celebrity, etc). I think if they are knowledgeable about sex AND know they are currently engaging in sex then it should not count so the ignorance/misknowledge should have to at least be 'related to sex'. But maybe the tag should include these broader 'tricking' scenarios?

I don't think innocence is really relevant because any relevant innocence would just lead to ignorance or miseducation/misknowledge. When I see "innocence" I think 'pure' with a lack of guilt/sin and that solely on its own should have nothing to do with them being taken advantage of.
Ignorance and misknowledge should be enough to cover everything. Ignorance covers not knowing about sex related things and or not knowing they are currently engaging in sexual acts... and misknowledge more clearly and more specifically covers when what they think they know (or have just recently been convinced of) about sex related things is not actually correct (yes ignorance (to the truth) technically should cover that, but stating misknowledge or miseducation would make it more clear that the tag includes both taking advantage of their lack of knowledge and taking advantage of their incorrect knowledge.)


Overall I think this kind of mix between 'naive' and 'clueless' just pollutes and trims both sides because they really are 2 different things. I can see how my old definition of 'clueless' could be too much, but it would be hard to further break the things that it could help to fix if used properly.

Naive is better, Clueless is a movie with Alicia Silverstone.

http://ehentaihip.com/g/1475317/5ae7a2bf5e/

^ This story has a mentally retarded kid in it. That's about as clueless as it gets. Wouldn't it be nice if they had their own little special tag?

Hmmm, I think Flarpa is right that innocence is not needed, ignorance (of sex-related topics) is the key.

But I don't think 'misknowledge' is the correct word, 'lack of knowledge' is better. But again, 'lack of knowledge = ignorance'.

So revised my def above

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Description: The act of taking advantage of someone's lack of knowledge of sex or for the purpose of sexual gratification.

What about tag name being 'taking advantage' rather than naive or clueless?

This post has been edited by Red_Piotrus: Sep 2 2019, 04:50

Hmmm, I think Flarpa is right that innocence is not needed, ignorance (of sex-related topics) is the key.

...

What about tag name being 'taking advantage' rather than naive or clueless?

I'll agree Innocence and Ignorance are two sides of the same coin, I'd just wouldn't consider a loli/shota ignorant but innocent... or idiot.

The name "taking advantage" would lean over Deceive/Deception/Coercion, the general point of this tag is to use a character sexual ignorance/misinformation/innocence to engage them into sexual acts without them acknowledging that what they're doing is sex, which includes an act of persuasion/deceive/trick/misinform/manipulation. But I guess we've been rephrasing to sound more like those.

Anyway, the tag has to be narrowed, I believe it must depicts a somewhat specific scenario to base on the tagging, otherwise it'll face the same end as those former proposals (I kind of remember this example when thinking on those 3) because tricking, deceiving or manipulate someone else with hentai logic is stupidly common a trope.

I kind of face it, three general/broad attempts have failed and this could turn into the fourth one because the tag definition is more troublesome than useful... But I couldn't think on something more refined so here're two drafts using flarpa Misknowledge idea.

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Description: The act of taking advantage of someone's sexual ignorance, innocence or misconception through tricking, deceiving or misinformation to engage them in sexual acts. The naive character has to misknowledge what they're doing as sex from beginning to end.

Description: Being ignorant of sex or having a misconception of it prompting on getting tricked, deceived or manipulated into sexual acts withouth ever acknowledging the act as sex.
Note: It may involve scenarios where sex is treated as a game, physical training, massage, etc. from beginning to end of the story.

This post has been edited by SMiyano: Sep 2 2019, 08:52

I am still wondering if those two would fit your defs: http://ehentaihip.com/g/819732/80a1ec539b/

http://ehentaihip.com/g/1197604/9dae2b1240/

This post has been edited by Red_Piotrus: Sep 3 2019, 05:22

I am still wondering if those two would fit your defs: http://ehentaihip.com/g/819732/80a1ec539b/

http://ehentaihip.com/g/1197604/9dae2b1240/

Those are two drafts, I don't have any semi complete proposal at the moment. But I'd say they enter the gray area, even when Noise work sound more like sexual favours (And Cipher-kun examples could work like that as well), and FMC knows about kissing and groping so it seems to be more she letting him do what he wants, the texts aren't much of help there.

I had a third draft, trying a different approach...

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Naive
Type: Attribute / Contextual
Description: A character who engages in sexual acts ignoring what sex is/entails or has a misconception about it.
Note: The character must never verbally acknowledge the acts as a sexual activity but remain ignorant or mistake it as training, massage, a foreign custom, etc.

ignoring what sex is is likely not the best wording, how about

Description: A character who engages in sexual acts without knowing what sex is/entails or has a misconception about it.