[X] My Assistant

Name: watching

Type: Activity / Visual

Description: Any sexual activity that is being observed with both parties being aware of the fact. Do not confuse with voyeurism, exhibitionism or public use.

Gender: The gender of character who is watching determines if the tag is placed in the female or male namespace.


Examples:
* http://ehentaihip.com/g/121467/b0db017c65/ Eng
* http://ehentaihip.com/g/1103075/f16d54391b/ Eng
* http://ehentaihip.com/g/1010/24ca45ac5b/ not TLed
* http://ehentaihip.com/g/1234211/9c62fb143b/ Eng. Note that the third party does not masturbate.
* http://ehentaihip.com/g/1387339/e30fb9f6b5/ Eng (second story). Turns into FFM later but passes presence beforehand. No mastrubation.
* http://ehentaihip.com/g/1101487/1fa7ebcbd2/ Eng. Turns into FFM later but passes presence beforehand. No masturbation
* http://ehentaihip.com/g/1060331/b51d4c808d/ Eng. Turns into FFM later but passes presence beforehand. No mastrubation. Bestiality
* http://ehentaihip.com/g/124175/9421bdbc68/ In the first part both male and female masturbate while watching one another.

This is different from:
* https://ehwiki.org/wiki/voyeurism - no spying required, it's in fact the opposite - all parties are aware they are being watched
* https://ehwiki.org/wiki/exhibitionism - Let me first quote the def of that tag: "Nudity or daring stunts with a risk of getting caught by strangers. Also blatant exposure to strangers.". The tag proposed here does not require setting to be public and exposure to strangers. Often takes place in private places and involves non-strangers. And all the galleries in my examples are not tagged with exhibitionism. This is not a subset of exhibitionism, as defined, but a somewhat similar yet different activity. Flashing a girl in a park is not the same as having sex in front of her in your house.
* https://ehwiki.org/wiki/masturbation - People who watch do not always masturbate. So masturbation -solo action will not work, as again sometimes watching is not accompanied by masturbation.
* https://ehwiki.org/wiki/group - "More than two participants engaged in sex simultaneously." Participants do not engage in the same sexual activity. Two people are doing the thing, the third person is watching/masturbating, but they are not doing it together. Note: group tag as worded may need clarification on what the 'same sexual activity' is. I've asked about it in tag discussion, no reply yet. I have no strong opinion on whether this should or shouldn't be tagged with group and such, as long as it is easy to find galleries with THIS activity which currently is NOT EASY.
* https://ehwiki.org/wiki/filming - which is obviously related to just filming. Can make a note that if all 'watching' is related to filming, don't tag watching, just tag filming. Another way to think about it is that filming is just a very specific type of broader activity described by that tag. Sample gallery with third person filming: http://ehentaihip.com/g/735089/93aa3e6828/ and http://ehentaihip.com/g/828335/2b3b4647df/ . In the latter in the second part he is just watching.

Why is this a fetish: Doh. Some people get turned from being observed. This is true for exhibitionists who go and flash strangers in the park... I hope that nobody will seriously say that 'exhibitionism is not a fetish'. But what to tag for cases that don't merit exhibitionist tag? Well, tag this.

Issues to consider:
* it is likely that quite a few threesome or group pairings can be tagged with that as like in some examples shown a couple can start and then is joined by others who were just watching for a while. This is not a problem. From the perspective of someone who likes the watching fetish but not group sex, they can always control by searching for watching -group (or just focus on the first part of the story). Do note that the first four examples in my list are not tagged with group tag. There's watching but only watching, no group sex, they are similar but there's no way to find them without a tag proposed here. (Ditto for partial but not complete overlap with masturbation).
* My examples are for a single person watching. If there is a group watching, tag in both male and female like https://ehwiki.org/wiki/masturbation - I think that's the simplest solution, watching and masturbating are similar concepts and similar logic should apply.
* I haven't found many examples with group watching that pass presence except http://ehentaihip.com/g/750060/7f244a6d90/ and and there's a crowd watching like in the last story of http://ehentaihip.com/g/848919/24574fa0db/ around page 93 (but it doesn't pass presence there, I think) but I am sure there are some more. It is possible we could use some tag for groups watching people having sex on stage or such, but this is somewhat different from what is discussed here, and if anyone wants to discuss this, I'd suggest proposing a new tag with better examples.

To the usual crowd who will argue this is not needed, please tell me how can someone find http://ehentaihip.com/g/121467/b0db017c65/ and http://ehentaihip.com/g/1103075/f16d54391b/ through the search without a ton of false positives you'd get from sole male +f:masturbation -f:sole female? Similar situation related to in-house exhibitionism, but not taggable with anything we have. And to anyone saying 'this is not a fetish', screw you, this is my fetish

This post has been edited by Red_Piotrus: Apr 8 2019, 05:07

And to anyone saying 'this is not a fetish', screw you, this is my fetish

Just because something is your fetish doesn't mean it needs to exist here.

This is mostly just exhibitionism no matter how you phrase it. Whether it is desirable or not to those being watched isn't a parameter.

This post has been edited by Maximum_Joe: Mar 27 2019, 17:39

I'm all for this, especially if it were to include people watching porn. Not filming, not spying, but porn on some kind of screen. Since we don't have a porn as an object tag to compliment masturbation scenarios.

Putting the exact definitions of the existing tags aside, to me, if "both parties are aware", then the ones doing sexual activities are being "exhibitionists".
Or maybe if they are forced to perform sexual activity while being watched, it would be "voyeurism".

I think the frontier (if there's one ) is too thin, especially with a word as vague as "watching" that may get tagged a lot on the other twos no matter what efforts are made in the definition.

@Marien: your idea is probably incompatible with what is proposed here (because both sides should be aware).

This post has been edited by uareader: Mar 27 2019, 22:18

This is mostly just exhibitionism no matter how you phrase it. Whether it is desirable or not to those being watched isn't a parameter.

Putting the exact definitions of the existing tags aside, to me, if "both parties are aware", then the ones doing sexual activities are being "exhibitionists".
Or maybe if they are forced to perform sexual activity while being watched, it would be "voyeurism".

I think the frontier (if there's one ) is too thin, especially with a word as vague as "watching" that may get tagged a lot on the other twos no matter what efforts are made in the definition.

If this was taggable as exhibitionism we wouldn't need a new tag. And it is NOT exhibitionism. Setting aside our definition, just look at [en.wikipedia.org] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhibitionism "Exhibitionism is the act of exposing in a public or semi-public context those parts of one's body that are not normally exposed". The examples I gave in the op are clearly for not public or semi-public contexts - one's house or hotel rooms or such are generally seen as private and not public. They clearly show the same situation, yet there's no shared tag for it, no way to find them by search. Saying 'we have a similar tag that cannot be used' is hardly a vaild criticism, heck, I said that in my OP (that we have similar but not usable tags).

@Joe: the def doesn't care if it is desirable or not to either party. Just the act of watching (a sexual activity), which is pretty objective and easy to identify. And, let me repeat, is not sufficient for exhibitionism tag. Of course, this shouldn't be tagged with exhibitionism or voyeurism to avoid pointless overlap.

Feel free to propose a definition tweak or alternative name. I don't think this will get mistagged much. Watching porn or such doesn't fit this due to 'being aware'. We can of course propose a separate tag for 'watching porn' or such and see if there's enough support for it.

This post has been edited by Red_Piotrus: Mar 28 2019, 03:42

Do the parties need to be aware of specifically who is watching?
For example, would live-streaming count? Would the people who are watching it need to be drawn? Or would this overlap with filming?
And then what about if people are watching each other masturbate (or something) through video chat (or something)? Would that overlap with filming?

How about "public use" situations where there is presence of people casually watching in the background but none of them are really being "exposed to" because they are all in on it? For example, http://ehentaihip.com/s/ca31033c0c/1191638-12 and http://ehentaihip.com/s/9237a821df/1293526-9
I've wondered before if these should qualify for exhibitionist but since no one is doing if for exhibition purposes it does not seem to fit. Would these be watching?

@Marien: your idea is probably incompatible with what is proposed here (because both sides should be aware).

It is extremely common in netorare stories for the wife to make a sex tape with the other guy and send it to her husband. Those situations are no different than him being there watching in person.

Do the parties need to be aware of specifically who is watching?
For example, would live-streaming count? Would the people who are watching it need to be drawn? Or would this overlap with filming?
And then what about if people are watching each other masturbate (or something) through video chat (or something)? Would that overlap with filming?

How about "public use" situations where there is presence of people casually watching in the background but none of them are really being "exposed to" because they are all in on it? For example, http://ehentaihip.com/s/ca31033c0c/1191638-12 and http://ehentaihip.com/s/9237a821df/1293526-9
I've wondered before if these should qualify for exhibitionist but since no one is doing if for exhibition purposes it does not seem to fit. Would these be watching?

Interesting cases. I'd personally prefer to keep the current definition, and have a separate proposal/discussion for streaming in which only one person is aware of who is watching, through unlike voyeurism, both parties are aware someone is watching. Same for marien's idea of a separate porn tag, I think it is an interesting concept that could use its own thread. We do tag objects like sex toys and others, after all.

For public use we do have https://ehwiki.org/wiki/public_use which seems sufficient for those cases. To avoid redundancy and 'too many tags' on the gallery, I am fine with adding public use to 'don't confuse' list. I.e. don't tag watching on exhibitionism, voyeurism or public use.

Setting aside our definition, [...]

This is the worst way to introduce an argument.

I think the idea itself is okay though. Instead of "both parties being aware" I would maybe word it like "both parties consensing to it" to avoid overlaps with exhibtionism.

The idea is certainly quite interesting. I can understand why some people wouldn't like it, but the tag makes sense, and some specification never hurts, especially for some people with more focused fetishes XP

I think the idea itself is okay though. Instead of "both parties being aware" I would maybe word it like "both parties consensing to it" to avoid overlaps with exhibtionism.

If you look at the examples in op, there's not that much consent. In some cases individuals are clearly bound or restrained.

I think E-H can gain from a tag for this purpose but I disagree with the name proposed.

I'd use sort of:
"spectator"
"privately watched"
...

(@Red) Name isn't exactly tagger-friendly and definition is confusing. Overlapping issues but you're already aware of this.

Any sexual activity that is being observed with both parties being aware of the fact.

"Being observed" needs defining.
"Being aware" is... uh, vague, for something that's supposed to be an activity. Hello NTR our old friend.

Don't get me wrong, I get the idea behind this but taggers will tag anyone who is watching anyone else having sex as soon as both sides look at them.
Sounds literally like NTR without the "umad" part.

This post has been edited by 43883​: Apr 3 2019, 12:12

Ok...

The 'spectator' name proposed by Jay Low is not half-bad. Do you think it would address the overeager tagger confusion issue?

I am not sure how 'being observed' can be confusing. Do you want to remove a possibility of it beign used on people being observed through devices like cameras?

Being aware, ok. I haven't thought about NTR but hmmm.

How about.

CODE

Any sexual activity taking place in the presence of another person who does not engage in the same activity. All parties are aware of one another presence and of the sexual activity occurring.

This post has been edited by Red_Piotrus: Jun 23 2019, 15:23

Sounds a bit less confusing and would also address the overlapping concern. Thanks Red.

I don't know about "spectator", I can't really come up with a good name for this myself either.
If someone can think of something that's mostly idiot-proof (maybe even a Japanese term the casual tagger would be familiar with) that'd be great.

The awareness remains the problem I think. If they're unaware, it's voyeurism, if they're aware, it could lead to a watered down NTR à la "notice me senpai, I'm having sex".
Not to mention we also have to define awareness if we want to avoid the NTR pit trap.

Or maybe I'm just overthinking things as usual... Sorry. (Funny when my first version of the previous post was "let's keep it simple" - oh the irony.)

This post has been edited by 43883​: Apr 3 2019, 17:15

The most recent definition seems promising, but I'm concerenced about the 'who does not engage in the same activity.'

I can see is like if someone is not activly participating in the sex for long enough are they then a watcher? Or if a group is big enough that there's always someone on the sideline at any point in time.

http://ehentaihip.com/g/1156894/76642586b5/
This one came to mind, I remember it slightly differently in terms of presence but I think it can still illustrate my point.

from pages 20-34 there are 2 boys and 3 men, at any point in time at least one of the men isn't involved in any sexual activity occuring, but has previously taken part or will. Would this count as watching?

Sounds a bit less confusing and would also address the overlapping concern. Thanks Red.

I don't know about "spectator", I can't really come up with a good name for this myself either.
If someone can think of something that's mostly idiot-proof (maybe even a Japanese term the casual tagger would be familiar with) that'd be great.

The awareness remains the problem I think. If they're unaware, it's voyeurism, if they're aware, it could lead to a watered down NTR à la "notice me senpai, I'm having sex".
Not to mention we also have to define awareness if we want to avoid the NTR pit trap.

Or maybe I'm just overthinking things as usual... Sorry. (Funny when my first version of the previous post was "let's keep it simple" - oh the irony.)

Another possible name could be observer.

Regarding confusion with https://ehwiki.org/wiki/netorare , I don't think it is very likely. (Examples?) This tag can co-exist with NTR on some galleries where the partner is observing the scene like in http://ehentaihip.com/g/828335/2b3b4647df/ . It should not be added when the partner is aware of the situation but not physically present. The " taking place in the presence of another person" should really be enough for all but the dumbest taggers (or those who won't read the defs) and for those we have no solution but the ban hammer, regardless of the tag.

The most recent definition seems promising, but I'm concerenced about the 'who does not engage in the same activity.'

I can see is like if someone is not activly participating in the sex for long enough are they then a watcher? Or if a group is big enough that there's always someone on the sideline at any point in time.

http://ehentaihip.com/g/1156894/76642586b5/
This one came to mind, I remember it slightly differently in terms of presence but I think it can still illustrate my point.

from pages 20-34 there are 2 boys and 3 men, at any point in time at least one of the men isn't involved in any sexual activity occuring, but has previously taken part or will. Would this count as watching?

Right, I was initially concerned about it too, and I think I mention this in the op. But only initially. At first I indeed started with this tag as one for situations where a third person is observing a couple. Setting aside that the third person can sometimes join them and it becomes a threesome and sometimes not (not an issue, presence rule for watching and existence of threesome tags takes care of any problems here), I did realize that it is not logical to restrict this tag to either a couple on one side, and a single person on the other. The size of both groups can vary, while the same situation (being watched, both parties aware) persists. One extreme, as you correctly note, is the case of a group, and given enough people, every now and then someone is just watching. As long as the presence rule is observed, I don't think it is a major problem. People who want to focus on the smaller groups can control for it by -group or +sole tags (aside from the usual problem of galleries containing multiple unrelated stories, but that's a mess that's not really solvable outside of creating a technical tag to tag such galleries). Bottom line, even in orgies, I can totally imagine some people getting off on the fact that someone is just watching them for a while.

Name suggestion: witness

Name suggestion: witness

A bit 'legalistic', but we can consider it. My current preference is 'observer'.