[X] My Assistant

CODE

Type: Activity / Contextual
Sub-Type: Infidelity
Definition: One partner in a couple voluntarily letting the other partner have sex with a third party. The partner having sex is not required to consent.
Notes: Should NOT be confused with swinging.
Gender: The gender of the one volunteering their partner determines if the tag is placed in the female or male namespace.
Japanese: 寝取られ

A change to the "swinging" tag to prevent overlap will also go through.

This post has been edited by Maximum_Joe: Jul 12 2020, 17:30

Against it.

Object; pretty sure this will confuse more people and cause new war between netorase and swinging.

Example :
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1624222/169b726cdb/
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1599175/b0ad5d998c/
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1486731/11b2cc4ca7/
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1470216/ccd35b3a22/
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1298867/45df7b444c/
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1183126/a1e5231573/
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1055232/51109e7544/ <- whole series
http://ehentaihip.com/g/795781/f51120a4c8/
http://ehentaihip.com/g/524329/816cfea724/
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1413336/6ffd04c4db/ <- like NTR our definition is broader and doesn't take feeling into account. By the accepted NTS definition, this one shouldn't be NTS but will be NTS here.
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1278772/7779eaef72/
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1219750/071f6cffec/

NOT NTS
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1296046/45de1fad16/ <- he's listening with his hidden camera/mic


Catchy one
http://ehentaihip.com/s/627b530522/1491452-94 <- story start with swinging, but she then went to the other dude without consent. Apparently. Until you read that last page.

#############

We should change the definition of swinging or we'll have conflict.
Old: A couple allowing one or both partners to have sex with a third party.
New: Couples exchanging partners to have sexual interaction with each others.
We need to stress the fact both partners are having sexual interaction (sex, masturbation, etc.). If it's only Husband + Wife + Nanpa and Husband only watch, it shouldn't be swinging.

About NTS tag I'm mostly objecting. I think it'll confuse others, I'm more for the idea to list possible galleries, and when we'll have a good bunch of them, we could activate the tag and push it to the galleries. People that way would have example of galleries. Not that I expect it to make people better at tagging it but, eh, better than just putting the tag out and see the damage later on.

This post has been edited by ero-onizuka: Jul 8 2020, 10:21

Example :
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1624222/169b726cdb/
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1599175/b0ad5d998c/
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1486731/11b2cc4ca7/
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1470216/ccd35b3a22/
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1298867/45df7b444c/
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1183126/a1e5231573/
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1055232/51109e7544/ <- whole series
http://ehentaihip.com/g/795781/f51120a4c8/
http://ehentaihip.com/g/524329/816cfea724/
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1413336/6ffd04c4db/ <- like NTR our definition is broader and doesn't take feeling into account. By the accepted NTS definition, this one shouldn't be NTS but will be NTS here.
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1278772/7779eaef72/
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1219750/071f6cffec/

NOT NTS
http://ehentaihip.com/g/1296046/45de1fad16/ <- he's listening with his hidden camera/mic
Catchy one
http://ehentaihip.com/s/627b530522/1491452-94 <- story start with swinging, but she then went to the other dude without consent. Apparently. Until you read that last page.

#############

We should change the definition of swinging or we'll have conflict.
Old: A couple allowing one or both partners to have sex with a third party.
New: Couples exchanging partners to have sexual interaction with each others.
We need to stress the fact both partners are having sexual interaction (sex, masturbation, etc.). If it's only Husband + Wife + Nanpa and Husband only watch, it shouldn't be swinging.

About NTS tag I'm mostly objecting. I think it'll confuse others, I'm more for the idea to list possible galleries, and when we'll have a good bunch of them, we could activate the tag and push it to the galleries. People that way would have example of galleries. Not that I expect it to make people better at tagging it but, eh, better than just putting the tag out and see the damage later on.

Yes.
I support this argument.
That is all.

We should change the definition of swinging or we'll have conflict.
Old: A couple allowing one or both partners to have sex with a third party.
New: Couples exchanging partners to have sexual interaction with each others.
We need to stress the fact both partners are having sexual interaction (sex, masturbation, etc.). If it's only Husband + Wife + Nanpa and Husband only watch, it shouldn't be swinging.

I'd hope for this change too.

Yes, the swinging tag would be somewhat altered.

And hence it has my support - I was in the recent NTR discussion and wanna give netorase a try. Not extremely sure whether it will help the NTR hell but it is worth the attempt.

I would support adding Netorase separately, but only because it clears up the confusion with the Netorare tag.

Netorare is currently defined on EHWiki as "Another person's spouse / partner being unfaithful and the one being cuckolded being aware of the situation. Also acceptable for when the story is clearly meant to invoke jealousy or sympathy on behalf of the person being cuckolded."

I believe the first clause was only added so that Netorare could be inclusive of Netorase; i.e., in a Netorase relationship, the cuckold is not due any sympathy because they are consensually sharing their partner, therefore it cannot fulfill the second clause. Otherwise the second clause alone would have sufficed for Netorare.

The intent was good: Netorase could be found by searching Netorare+Swinging, and that's one less tag to manage.

However that seems to have had unintended consequences: the current Netorare definition is clunky and prone to misreading. The result is arguments in the comments about whether a work should be tagged "netorare", between people with the general understanding of netorare, and people who are going by the confusing EHWiki definition.


Alternatively we could clean up the EHWiki Netorare entry to be less confusing and keep Netorare+Swinging=Netorase. Which might be the more pragmatic choice, considering the risk of introducing a new tag.

In an ideal world, I think adding Netorase separately is warranted, and I think it's distinct enough from Netorare and as its own genre that the risk is relatively small.

I support that tag.

Here's a work that could fall under that category http://ehentaihip.com/g/1617621/f07584f682/
Though at the end things get out of MC's hands

More nuances make sense. Support.

But "The partner having sex is not required to consent." is weird, suggests swinging is ok which it is not.

Shouldn't this be used for only when there is explicitly no consent?

This post has been edited by Red_Piotrus: Jul 23 2020, 05:24

That's kinda the default in any relationship, at least I hope that is the case...

More nuances make sense. Support.

But "The partner having sex is not required to consent." is weird, suggests swinging is ok which it is not.

Shouldn't this be used for only when there is explicitly no consent?

I don't understand? The fact the partner having sex doesn't accept it, isn't swigning. Swinging is only when there is an exchange of partner. Netorase is everything else as long as the partner not having sex is OK (not "double" rape), the one having sex can be OK but can also reject it.

Example :

Husband + Wife : wife accept and encourage husband to let her have sex with someone else => netorase
Husband + Wife : wife doesn't accept and husband push her to have sex with someone else => netorase
Husband + Wife + Another couple : husband β have sex with wife α. Husband α doesn't have sex with wife β => swinging. Quite rare, only happen when this is a two chapter story and we only read chap 1. It's still swinging they exchange partner, even though they may not have sex.


This post has been edited by ero-onizuka: Jul 24 2020, 20:04

If the discrete components comprising a NETORASE situation cannot be defined in a single chart with discrete paths for NETORASE, NETORARE, CHEATING, OR SWINGING, then it shouldn't be allowed due to the overlapping concepts confusion along with the Presence rule. The first half could satisfy the presence rule for swinging, the middle third of the story satisfied the presence rule for netorase, and then the last third satisfied the presence rule for Netorare as the protagonist changed his mind starting in the final third. Thus, unless the concepts are definable, all tags are usable for the excerpted manga or doujinshi as there is also no mutual exclusion.

Without a chart, even a Netorare story could be tagged as Netorase because up to a certain point, there is no feeling of anger of the Cheating going on and the protagonist is still lurking undetected. For that section which meets the presence rule for Netorase, it is tagged as Netorase. Then it's time to look at the story once again to see if there is a section large enough to satisfy the Presence rule for Netorare. Now, it's time to scan the story for any section capable of meeting the Presence rule for Cheating.

If it's not good enough to be defined with discrete ideas, then it shouldn't be added.

A substantial number of the "neto* and/or cheat" manga excerpts and doujinshi stories are long enough to allow Presence to be satisfied for all three tags at once. So, does a new type of mutual exclusion rule need to be added to the wiki saying that the section of story evaluated for cheating, netorase, swinging, or netorare then becomes mutually exclusive to the other tags? That doensn't mean the other sections of the story can't be used for tags though.

does a new type of mutual exclusion rule need to be added to the wiki saying that the section of story evaluated for cheating, netorase, swinging, or netorare then becomes mutually exclusive to the other tags?

Only 1 can occur at a time with each "pair" of participants. If consent changes then you might have something.

Netorase is netorare though? You wouldn't exclude both.

[quote name='ero-onizuka' date='Jul 24 2020, 15:00' post='5726314']
I don't understand? The fact the partner having sex doesn't accept it, isn't swigning. Swinging is only when there is an exchange of partner. Netorase is everything else as long as the partner not having sex is OK (not "double" rape), the one having sex can be OK but can also reject it.



I would say that netorare is when a couple cheats on another by having sex, without an agreement between the two.

instead swinging is when the 2 have made an agreement to have sex with others.

I second everyone agreeing Netorase should be added, and swinging should be changed.

To add a note for netorase, I would say that it should be said that the spouse convincing/forcing the partner having sex with a third party can still have sex with their spouse.
It's not rare netorase for the sake of arousal, where often the couple has sex while watching the video of one of the two having sex with the third party.
(first 22 pages of this are a perfect example: http://ehentaihip.com/g/1683322/28a1eae608/, wife has sex with husband while watching the video of her fucking another guy. Later she even has a threesome by sucking her husband off while fucking the other dude.)

Husband + Wife + Another couple : husband β have sex with wife α. Husband α doesn't have sex with wife β => swinging. Quite rare, only happen when this is a two chapter story and we only read chap 1. It's still swinging they exchange partner, even though they may not have sex.

I disagree with this.
If only one of the swapped spouses have sex, it's just netorare.
Husband B literally just stole Husband A's wife.
Wife B is not involved (only gets cheated by her husband) as well as Husband A (only gets cheated by his wife) in sex.

Swinging should apply only if all four have sex.
If someone is not involved, it's just not a swap anymore.

This post has been edited by Juggernaut Santa: Aug 15 2020, 17:45

I disagree with this.
If only one of the swapped spouses have sex, it's just netorare.
Husband B literally just stole Husband A's wife.

Swinging should apply only if all four have sex.
If someone is not involved, it's just not a swap anymore.

+1

The way Joe wrote it initially seems pretty apt.

No, it's not NTR. NTR imply a stealing. If the husband is OK, and if the story doesn't imply any stealing, then it's not NTR. It's a rare thing like I said and more a matter of possibility. I think I've seen a story (chap 1 like that) but can't remember exactly.

However you're right on one point: that situation should not allow a swinging tag nor a ntr as I explained.

After thinking this tag has my support, looking at the swinging tag it's has already gallery which will end NTS and we could clean swinging that way.